Sustainability, Passive House, Modular, and Housing with Dave and Mark

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This week, Tim and Carolina meet with industry experts Dave Cooper and Mark Wille to talk about a smorgasbord of topics in the building industry, including great advice for newcomers to the industry.

More About the Show

The Build Perspectives podcast shares insider knowledge to build connections and community in the building materials industry. Tim and Carolina are friends, colleagues and former coworkers who love the construction industry and their clients, and want to share their passion and insights to attract future talent to the industry.

In this episode, Tim and Carolina talk with Dave Cooper, from Dave Cooper Live, and Mark Wille, from T-Stud, about the building industry, their experiences in the business and how they have grown into their roles, along with offering advice for people interested in the field. 

Background Information 

Dave has spent 20 years in off-site construction, specifically modular single family Over those 20 years, his modular was deemed “fringe”, never seen as a mainstream way of building. He would video what he was doing, and while filming, he would be walking through commercial projects, talking about the quality, process and innovation. 

Over the years, the audience and business grew so much that his wife told him that he should start interviewing people. He would go to conventions and pull out a camera and start talking to people about off-site construction and innovation. Five years ago, he went from being a full-time modular home builder in New England to full-time video producer and influencer. 

His goal is to engage industry thought leaders and move the conversation forward around construction and the industry through unscripted and unedited video. People can connect, worlds can collide and people can collaborate and share what is happening in the world. He explains that it brings the youth into the conversation and helps make the world healthy. 

Tim points out that the theme is connection, which is more important now than ever for the industry. He asks Dave and Mark about their connection — how it started and how they’ve seen it flourish and how it has impacted them and the community.

Dave states that he started making the videos and Mark started commenting on them, back before Dave was live. Mark sent Dave a comment, but Dave missed it. A couple of months later, Mark sent another comment, saying Dave needed to respond to people. Dave looked at the comment and panicked. Then, he looked up Mark and saw that he was the craftsman tool guy. He had his own youtube videos, and Dave thought, “I really screwed up.” So, Dave asked him if they could talk, and they were on the phone for over an hour. 

Mark explains how he liked to use LinkedIn to find people and actually reaches out if he finds them. Dave piqued his interest by what he was doing in the modular world but also what he was doing in the video world — a double whammy. Mark doesn’t like to travel on planes, but Dave was flying to conventions. So, Mark would ask Dave if he could set up virtual meetings, and Dave supported it. Mark was able to attend those meetings virtually through Dave and his contacts got to meet Dave to share stories.

Mark comes from the building science world, the Passive House world. 

Mark says that in 2002, Chicago opened a facility where they took an abandoned building and turned it into the Center for Green Technology. They offered classes on Tuesday and Thursday nights with presenters that were in the green industries and classes on Saturdays were offered to anyone for free. 

Green products at the time were still a novelty. Mark was selling bamboo because of the look but he found out it had nasty stuff in it. He mentioned that he found the green industry through Passive House because there was nothing online, then he started selling green materials. 

Chicago had their own standard called Green Homes Programs. He was working on Green Homes Programs #2, and Tim Hepter found Passive House, brought it to him and mentioned making a group. Mark kept wanting to further himself and his group with challenges and that led them to Passive House. 

He wanted a house that was low maintenance so people didn’t have as many issues and high bills. His group realized it was simple — the key focus needed to be put on insulation, caulking and fresh air. Before it closed down, Mark attended the most and was close to the person who presented the most. It was all-consuming for him.

Getting Educated Through Social Media

Education is what BS (Building Science) Friday is all about. People learn about what building science is, and they get practical information that people can use and incorporate it in what they are doing. Even Dave learns from BS Friday, as he is a visual person and needs it in simpler terms.

Mark’s experience in the field has not always been so smooth. He mentions how he was told a fib about how Passive Homes used a hairdryer to heat an entire house. He found out that people were using real calculations and science to figure out how to heat the home efficiently and doing a lot more than just using a hairdryer. 

In Chicago, he was a part of the Passive House Alliance that supported the Passive House Institute U.S. But at the time, Passive House Institute U.S. was at a crossroads, trying to get control and power over PHA. Both disagreed with each other, adding confrontation. Passive House Institute U.S. was trying to differentiate the areas, and Passive House Alliance wouldn’t agree and they didn’t work it out. 

Mark was trained in New York by Passive House Institute, so he felt like the ugly duckling surrounded by architects trained in Chicago. Then, the Passive House Accelerator said that PHA and PHIUS are hosting weekly online events together to talk about the projects. He mentioned that going online every Wednesday night for a few hours was blissful because everyone was striving for the same goal. Although they might have different camps and different bases, they all wanted to move the industry forward together, even if they had different views and opinions.

Tim’s been on those Wednesday evening Zoom meetings and says there are around 1,100 people on, most of them being designers, architects or building construction people. After (and sometimes during), people are trying to look each other up on LinkedIn to continue the conversation. It’s another connection that makes the industry better. 

Join and Create Conversations

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Dave explains that the greatest thing to come out of his show’s conversations is the knowledge that there is a whole ecosystem growing behind the scenes. He says people tune in to have conversations behind him and Mark, but the people collaborating and talking is great. No matter the opinion, the collaboration will make the industry go forward faster. The collaboration makes for healthier homes and for a healthier planet.

Mark mentions that when the industry goes through code changes, we get so excited that this is the year we care about energy. Then, it doesn’t happen but we move the bar a little and celebrate the small victories. 

He explains that when he used to walk on a job site, someone would say, “This is the way we have always done it.” Now what you hear is, “This is what we tried, it didn’t work, but here is what I learned.” 

Sharing through conversations has grown. Health and comfort are drivers because we are cooped in our homes now more than ever. Our voices are going to further places and make for a better environment.

So what is the connection between modular construction and sustainability?

Dave says that with modular construction in general, they look at preplanning what they are going to do, build it on the computer and model it out, trying to avoid throwing 30% of the materials in a dumpster. Limiting the waste put out there and reusing what you can is great for sustainability. 

A lot of factories even reuse the waste to heat their factory or to rekindle products somewhere else. Sometimes weather conditions are issues. If you have wet lumber, you have to wait for that material to dry. Time is money. With off-site modular construction in controlled environments, they eliminate a lot of these things. 

So not only is it more sustainable, and we can really pick and choose how we build our homes, we can actually watch how the homes are being built with skilled labor in a manufacturing facility. On top of that, the weather isn’t an issue since the entire process is done in a controlled environment facility. And that’s kind of where the two fall hand in hand and why it just makes sense for the worlds to collide. 

Mark adds that if the contractor knows exactly what his takeoff is and what the specified products are, his budget is his actual purchase order list. There are no cost overruns. Sustainable is attainable because there is no waste in time, the budget, nor efficiency. So attainability is sustainability when a great plan is executed. 

Dave adds that it’s less disruption on-site. It’s less disruption to the environment, to the property, to the neighbors. He says that when they look at it as a whole for when they can deliver a project, they set the project in one day and have 70 to 90% of that project completed on that day. 

The biggest problem they have is people driving by almost wrecking their cars doing a “double take” – there was nothing there in the morning and now there’s an entire house! When getting the modules to the location, they do sometimes need police escorts, but that’s a small adjustment to make in the process to achieve better building. The reality is, the whole life cycle of modular construction is more sustainable and lower impact, not only on the environment but the people that are surrounding the entire project to include the neighbors, the bystanders and the watchers.

Achieving sustainability is all about eliminating unsustainable practices. Looking around and asking what’s unsustainable or what’s unsustainable is important. What’s unsustainable is people that could be doing actual, productive work are having to do callback work.  

It is important to think about long term things, too. What is happening between that wall? What is going to continue to happen in that wall? What’s going to make that child, that mother, that sister, that brother, that uncle, that grandma unhealthy? 

Education

Dave starts by mentioning that he didn’t go to college for building. He grew up framing houses during the summers and weekends, and he swore he would never go into the building industry. But, when he got out of the military, he decided he was going to get back in the building. His grandfather told him, “You can either go to college and pay for your education or you could just go out there and do it and get your ass handed to you — either way, you’re paying.” 

Dave believes in the Malcom Gladwell education: 10,000 hours of experience. He says that he knows an eighth of what he probably should know even to this day. It’s constant learning. So for the education part of it, it costs him tens of thousands of dollars in mistakes over the years. The best teacher in the world, though, is the lessons learned. The lessons will keep coming and the education is nonstop. He then says that now is the time for young people to get into this because we have technology and innovators.

Mark’s dad was a buyer for lumberyards, while his uncles were builders. However, the family wasn’t allowed to work for the family. He always had to go and work for someone else’s family. He mentions that you’re picking up stuff you don’t want to pick up and you’re hauling stuff cause you don’t know how to lift or do anything — that was his education at a young age. 

Mark went to a small private school, got a degree in marketing, economics and business, then traveled and worked and volunteered in other countries. After returning, he flew around the world, selling and marketing and branding for companies while renovating houses. While he was renovating the houses and getting back into that, he gave up that “professional world.” 

As Mark puts it, he got back to the roots of “listening” to buildings and what they needed. He says that he knows it sounds strange. It talks to you and tells you what it needs, and it is telling you what it absolutely does not want. Then you apply the resources.

There are a tremendous amount of stories in that building and the people that have touched that and lived in that building. You have that ability to harness that knowledge, to include it into your repertoire and to apply it to future situations. Storytelling is how we pass along knowledge. You learn accidentally by hearing stories. It happens to many people at a young age: a coach, a grandma, a neighbor. There was someone that told a story. Mark says that, to him, this industry sets up the stories and it keeps telling them.

Advice for Upcoming Generations 

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So what advice would Dave and Mark give to someone who wanted to start today, who didn’t want a four-year degree? Someone who needed to earn money today in construction?

Dave explains that for someone entering the trade, the biggest thing right now is the trade labor pool. If somebody wants to learn the trades, there’s so much opportunity whether it’s in off-site construction or within the trades itself: plumber, electrician, whomever. 

What’s so amazing about our industry is everybody’s so willing to help. There’s no barrier to entry into this. People just have to be willing to enter. The biggest advice Dave has for you is you have to get involved. Electricians, plumbers or farmers come out of their apprenticeship making up to $80,000 with zero to no debt. Start talking to people and join the conversation. People want other people to succeed.

The reason Carolina does this podcast is that young people are going to be running these companies. They’re going to be the developers and the financial folks. Capitalism may not be going away, but capitalism needs to be more conscious and realize that the government can’t possibly come up with a solution for homelessness. It’s up to the population and the industry. 

It’s the passing of the torch, and people have all been given those breaks or created those breaks. However, these are things that are taught in the school system today: how to live a life and how to pick up a trade. So pass that torch.

Mark uses LinkedIn messenger to make connections because it is a sharing community. The trades have a massive shortage, so a lot of times in life, people find jobs because someone has an opening and then someone says, “Hey, well, you know, my friend does this and we have an opening,” and then you fall into it. 

But if something in the construction industry is calling someone, there’s enough work out there where they don’t have to wait for an invite. They can actually reflect and say, “You know, I really don’t like talking to the client. I really don’t like people. I like to put my headphones on and just do a task every day.” Okay, great. You could be an insulator, you could focus on that wall and do that. There’s a different job for everyone. While plumbers and electricians are trained very well, there are plenty of other trades to go into, such as welders, fabricators, woodworkers, siding specialists or roofing specialists, and the whole other digital side of it.

Mike Rowe wrote a piece on how Microsoft Dell and Apple displaced the shop program in high schools. But it’s almost 22% in GDP, and it’s huge when it includes all construction and construction services. If folks are thinking about the highest income with the lowest education, they lean toward sales. The second most income is framing and trim carpentry because that’s the highest need. When builders are pulled, their biggest needs are framers and trim carpenters. He states that with those jobs, someone with a pulse could show up and people would put them to work. 

There’s work for every personality type. Every strength, every weakness: there is something for someone. People don’t have to go into debt with college tuition. If it’s not for you, it’s okay. 

The joy of the offsite community is you’re driving or taking public transportation or biking to one destination, showing up, doing one assembly task and you become so good at it. You learn and you become knowledgeable in the field. You do it so well that your supervisor starts listening to you. It’s a gift. Mark says he feels it’s going to grow from within, and all the new people coming in will be able to add to the industry even more. 

Conversations That Deserve Attention

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What is something in the construction industry or in building materials or sustainability that no one’s really talking about now, but should?

5% of the industry is so far beyond code, and they’re not recognized and acknowledged for that. So when people pick on the industry and say, “We’re not there and we need to do more,” people need to realize that those are the municipalities, contractors and finance people that are allowing the minimum and are truly doing a disservice because the building is not durable. 

Mark points out what isn’t being talked about but should. Building today is not resilient. It is not efficient. And it’s going to have to be replaced in 10, 20, 30 years. We’re missing the acknowledgment and the fact that the industry could be led by the industry and the shortcoming is the municipality. We are big enough to finance or take care of ourselves. We are powerful, smart people that could do that. 

Some materials available in the market now that should not be sold. There are materials installed that should never be installed. Let’s look at examples like the step code in British Columbia. Let’s look at examples from what Japan did and what Sweden did with panelized and prefab in the ‘70s. Let’s embrace that and say that all buildings need to go beyond code and do it. 

At the end of the day, we can do better. If we focus on that, the trickle-down of these great materials and these great workforces that do better, we’ll be able to have a surplus. Homelessness needs to be discussed. Health is too important. Individuals are responsible for the community and we are responsible for the neighbors we’ve never met. 

Unaffordable Homes Creating Homelessness

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Census data shows there was about twice the amount of empty bedrooms in 2019 in the United States to the number of homeless people. And that’s just single-family homes. That is unsustainable. 

The 3 “H’s” should be the 4 H’s: homelessness, hunger, health and happiness. Each of us has gifts to use in different workforces. Each of us has that to contribute. People in the construction industry want challenges and they always want to do better. Show up and physically see the transformation around you, and you should want to drive and do that better. While it’s harder than other industries because of the intangibles, but we have that tangible.

Where Carolina lives in Southern California, she sees it every single day. The hundreds of thousands of homeless people in other cities go there, and people can’t possibly accommodate. So the homeless just line the streets all over downtown. It’s a problem that she sees in her day to day life every single day.

People are not talking enough about the affordable housing side of everything. Dr. Brenton Musson said, “It makes no sense that I can walk into Home Depot, buy everything I need to build for a house, but yet it costs me twice as much to have it done somewhere else.” 

We have the tools, the resources and the knowledge to build better, more sustainable homes, and build them at an affordable price point. People talk about tent cities in California and all the trailers lining up. That’s because as a society, we’ve created this problem. 

Capitalism is great. But at some point, it can get a little bit crazy about where it goes, how it goes and how the supply chain works. We need to talk about it not only with ourselves but with the production builders, with the passive house and with everybody, and really look at what caused the million home deficit. 

We don’t have the workforce because kids don’t want to swing a hammer as they did years ago. As a society, we need to collectively understand that the world has changed. We still need their opinions, their advice, because they’re the ones that are going to help shape this. 

Older generations need to talk to the youth about coming into the industry and look at the industry as a whole. The industry as a whole has been part of this problem, has helped cause this housing shortage. If we started talking about that more mainstream, it would bring the issues more to light. Real solutions will come out of it because right now there are no real solutions. Everybody thinks they have the magic sauce, but if that was the case, there wouldn’t be such a big problem. 

Right now, thousands of people are having conversations about housing affordability and different ways to go about it. It is great when people unify those conversations while making sure everyone feels like they have the freeness and individuality to achieve what they want to achieve. 

However, finance is also part of the problem. There’s some culpability there and the supply chain is just intermediating. 

Join the Conversation

We’d love to hear your thoughts on this week’s episode! Shoot us an email at buildperspectives@gmail.com.

Resources from this Episode

BS Fridays LIVE on YouTube 8am Pacific/11am Eastern with Dave Cooper and Mark Wille

Passive House Accelerator LIVE every Wednesday 4pm (also, Passive House Global Happy Hour)

Dave Cooper Live – Modular Offsite Construction Expert and Video Content Producer